IN-CJ Podcast 047 – Bill Mather Leading from the Outside
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Bill Mather is a renowned leader in the field of international criminal justice, and his work with Social Pioneers and Apex Trust has been instrumental in supporting leadership development and systems change. His approach is characterized by a deep commitment to social justice and a belief in the power of collaboration and innovation to effect positive change.
In this episode of the IN-CJ podcast, John Scott talks with Bill about is work, his values and his belief in social transformation through individual empowerment. For example, one of Bill’s key achievements has been the creation of the International Leadership and Development Programme (ILDP), which is designed to build the capacity of leaders in the criminal justice sector across the globe. Through the ILDP, Bill has helped to develop a network of practitioners and experts who are working together to address the complex challenges facing the criminal justice system.
Bill’s work has also focused on developing innovative approaches to systems change. For example, he has pioneered the use of restorative justice in prisons, which involves bringing together victims, offenders, and other stakeholders to repair harm and restore relationships. This approach has been shown to reduce reoffending rates and promote healing for all involved.
Overall, Bill Mather’s approach to leadership development and systems change in international criminal justice is marked by a deep commitment to social justice, collaboration, and innovation. Through his work with Social Pioneers and Apex Trust, he has made a significant impact in the field and inspired countless others to join him in the pursuit of a more just and equitable world.
This IN-CJ podcast features Bill Mather, who reflected on his career as a consultant, charity leader, and international adviser, and on what it means to exercise leadership in criminal justice from outside formal systems of power.
Mather described his decision to remain an “outsider” to government rather than a civil servant, valuing the independence this brought, even while acknowledging the lack of authority and resources compared to those within public institutions. He explained that this external position allowed him to question assumptions, take risks, and introduce ideas that might otherwise be suppressed by bureaucracy.
Drawing on his consultancy work with the Home Office and HM Treasury, Mather spoke about the importance of building trust with officials and co-producing solutions rather than imposing them. He emphasised that meaningful change comes not from instructing others, but from creating a sense of ownership among those tasked with delivering reform.
As CEO of the Apex Trust, Mather helped transform it into a major provider of employment support for offenders, a role deeply informed by his personal experiences of exclusion and the imprisonment of his father. His leadership style focused on empowerment, encouraging staff and partners to define their own vision and strategies while being supported by clear values and evidence.
The conversation also explored the international dimension of leadership, where cultural differences, authoritarian trends, and questions of trust complicate reform. Mather argued that interdependence and collaboration are vital in shaping humane and effective justice systems worldwide.
At a personal level, Mather reflected on moving away from materialist goals toward a values-driven philosophy of leadership, rooted in service, authenticity, and enabling others. His story underlined that leading from the outside can offer freedom, perspective, and innovation – but requires patience, trust, and humility to succeed.
Listen to the full discussion in IN-CJ Podcast 047 – Bill Mather: Leading from the Outside.
