John Scott: Hello, everybody.
John Scott: welcome to our international network, criminal justice, live podcast.
John Scott: And we've just been demonstrating how live it is because my signal has been awful.
John Scott: So I hope you'll bear with us if I dip in and out, and that people will be tolerant and understand that sometimes
John Scott: the Internet is not perfect.
John Scott: This is the first episode in a series that we've called just psychology.
John Scott: When leading psychologists are invited to examine important justice issues and then bring their particular expertise to bear
John Scott: in conversation with a small live audience, and Professor Joe Clark, from the UK.
John Scott: My name's John Scott, and my only job today is to chair the podcast and invite you to ask questions and contribute to the discussion.
John Scott: Now, thank you very much for joining.
John Scott: You can find details of future episodes on our website.
John Scott: But the next topic is on organizational resilience and is going to be recorded tomorrow. That's the 20 ninth of May. So if you've got a slot, please feel to be feel free to join us tomorrow
John Scott: subject. Today is gonna focus on work in prisons, and maybe the pressures of working in groups prisons. And we hope the conversation will be both lively and interesting.
John Scott: Now, how's this podcast going to work?
John Scott: We're going to have short introductions by both Joe Clark and
John Scott: Pia. Poor Larka!
John Scott: And then we're going to have a conversation with responses to your comments and questions, and we're going to draw in our small audience and ask them to go live with us, and to have a conversation as if it were round the table.
John Scott: and the aim is that your issues and points will shape the content of the podcast
John Scott: we've not done this before. So we're experimenting and hope that you'll enjoy the the results.
John Scott: So later on, please use the raise hand or go live on your microphone by unmuting, or, if you prefer, use the chat function on zoom.
John Scott: and I'll try my best to put the comments or questions to Joe. And yeah.
John Scott: so first of all, I'm going to ask Pierre and Joe to introduce themselves.
John Scott: It's a rather good way to check that. The connections are working.
John Scott: So Pier say, is something about where you are, what your background is, and what your current interests are here.
Pia Puolakka: Yeah, thank you for the invitation to this podcast. And hello everyone. My name is Pia. Paul
Pia Puolakka: and I work in the Prison and Probation Service of Finland since 2,012,
Pia Puolakka: and I'm a forensic psychologist and psychotherapist, and I used to work as a prison psychologist before I came to work here in the
Pia Puolakka: operative management unit of prison and probation service.
Pia Puolakka: I was a project manager for the so called smart prison project
Pia Puolakka: implementing Finland's first cell devices
Pia Puolakka: with digital services.
Pia Puolakka: And my current post is a team leader
Pia Puolakka: in the operative management unit, and my team is responsible for various rehabilitative digital and security services in prisons and probations.
Pia Puolakka: And I'm still involved with the digital rehabilitation, the smart prison systems.
Pia Puolakka: And I've been also part of some AI artificial intelligence projects here in Finland
Pia Puolakka: and I also belong to the Europeese ICT expert group.
Pia Puolakka: and I was also part of the Council of Europe's expert group
Pia Puolakka: developing recommendations for the use of AI in corrections
Pia Puolakka: which was quite interesting. So
Pia Puolakka: that's my background.
Joanna Clarke: So I'm not sure if we've lost John again.
Joanna Clarke: I think we might have done so. I'm just gonna dive in Pierre and introduce myself, too. So again, I'm very grateful to be invited to this podcast I think it's a really unusual format. And I really hope that when people listen in. They'll gain a lot from the conversations that we have. I used to be a forensic psychologist, but it was last century which does seem like a very long time ago. So I joined the Uk. The British and
Joanna Clarke: Irish and Welsh Uk prison system back in 1990 as a young, newly qualified psychologist, and as I reflect on the journey over the last sort of 34 years, I realised that very, very early on in my career I had an interest in the impact that that type of work might have on the staff who work within prisons, and that came from the fact that at 23
Joanna Clarke: whilst I could have applied to work in a prison. I decided not to, because I thought I was a bit young and a bit inexperienced, so I didn't actually join until I was 25,
Joanna Clarke: and
Joanna Clarke: almost immediately, having successfully got through a recruitment process, I was asked if I would be posted to Albany prison on the Isle of Wight, which some people, I'm sure, will remember. It's not there anymore, because it's been combined with Parkhurst and the other prison on the Isle of Wight, tiny Island, and 3 prisons on it, and I was asked if I would go there because Albany was going to become a centre of excellence in the treatment of sex offenders.
Joanna Clarke: and I remember vividly thinking, I don't think I want to work with sex offenders. I think that might do my head in. So, having already been concerned about my age at joining the service I was then concerned about the type of offenders that I worked with and then realised, of course you don't really get a choice. So I did become involved in therapeutic interventions with sex offenders, and I was involved in that for many, many years, both at Albany and later on at Brixton Prison, and later on in other prisons where I worked.
Joanna Clarke: my interest in how we thrive or survive in those sorts of environments was really peaked. When 2 colleagues took the prison service to court for psychiatric injury, it never actually went to court. It was eventually settled, and these were 2
Joanna Clarke: extraordinary people who were incredibly committed to their work, very compassionate.
Joanna Clarke: a kind
Joanna Clarke: committed people
Joanna Clarke: who had found themselves incredibly damaged by their experience of working therapeutically with offenders, and because that peaked my interest, I then had an opportunity to go and research the issue of impact on staff at the University of York in the year 2,000 so sort of 10 years into my career.
Joanna Clarke: and that really has shaped where I've moved on to from there. So I, having finished my my Phd. Went back into the prison service.
Joanna Clarke: A very forward thinking area manager created a job as well, being advisor in high security prisons, and I held that job for about 5 years or so.
Joanna Clarke: designing and implementing a psychologically informed strategy to support the wellbeing of staff, who worked with some of the most difficult, dangerous, and disruptive prisoners in our system, who were under particular pressures. I think, as a result of the work that they did
Joanna Clarke: so.
Joanna Clarke: having spent many years doing that, I then moved back into Academia and was involved in a State probation service of Latvia funded piece. Well, actually it was funded by the EU, but driven by the State probation service of Latvia, looking at resilience in criminal justice across Europe, which involved, obviously Latvia, the Netherlands, Estonia and Bulgaria, and the Uk.
Joanna Clarke: And that piece of research yielded some very interesting information and support for the need to ensure that staff have every opportunity to thrive.
Joanna Clarke: and from there, and from everything that I was lucky enough to learn in what we understand as a very challenging environment.
Joanna Clarke: then set up my own small, not for profit. Business called Petros, and we specialise in helping all organisations ensure that they provide an environment where people can thrive.
Joanna Clarke: although obviously I have a heart in criminal justice, and it remains there. So we do still work with a number of different providers of custodial services, and
Joanna Clarke: and I very much enjoy continuing that work. Although I have to say, Pierre, I think you're probably much more involved in frontline prison work than I am, and I'm absolutely aware. One of the things I find really interesting in addition to these incredible initiatives that you're part of is just the difference in the prison population now.
Joanna Clarke: compared with 30 years ago, when
Joanna Clarke: the the men that and I only ever worked in male prisons. But the men that I worked with sort of grew up in the sixties and seventies in a very different world, where there was no technology and no AI. And you know the younger younger end of our prison population now were born in the
Joanna Clarke: late nineties 2,000, and have grown up in such a different world. So it's fascinating to me, and it isn't an area that I know anything about. But it's fascinating to me. The work that you're doing and the importance of
Joanna Clarke: of technology in our prison system and its role in rehabilitation. So I'm so delighted. I mean, I actually, I just want to sit back and listen to you talk if I'm honest. But I'd be so interested as well to think about, how can we use the technology to ensure that our staff, who are involved in interventions, with offenders, in prisons
Joanna Clarke: and in the community. How can that technology support everybody, the prisoners in their rehabilitation? But and the staff as well? So that's where I'm coming from. So I'm really, really delighted to be here. I hope I didn't take too long in my introduction. I think we've got John back, but I'm not sure if he can hear. Can you hear us, John?
John Scott: Hi! I I I can hear you, but I've dipped in and out about a dozen times.
Joanna Clarke: Okay.
John Scott: And Rob, who's brilliant and our technical guy says, I, while you 2 are doing your
John Scott: introduction to the topping.
John Scott: I'm probably best advised to switch. My roots are back on and off in the hope.
John Scott: But I can join you without losing things. So what I'm going to do
John Scott: is introduce Pia, who's got a 10 min topic introduction.
John Scott: and then, as you finish here, hand over to Joe.
John Scott: and by then I should be back
John Scott: if I don't manage to get a better signal
John Scott: Rob will then chair the the question time.
John Scott: But I'm really sorry. Hopefully, this bit has been okay. And I'm gonna ask Pierre to do here introduction, and I'll disappear for a while and hopefully come back to join the the the discussion.
John Scott: Good luck, everybody. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I've been a pain. See you later.
Pia Puolakka: See you later.
Pia Puolakka: So I I think I will start with a short introduction of prison and probation service of Finland. What we are doing and what I'm interested to highlight here in this. Podcast
Pia Puolakka: and I'm very eager to hear your comments and questions.
Pia Puolakka: So prison and probation service of Finland has is or is divided after our organizational change, into into 5 national units. And, as I said, I'm working in the so-called co-operations department.
Pia Puolakka: We also have a separate department for development
Pia Puolakka: and then for client processes, and then for administration and support services, and then also internal audit unit.
Pia Puolakka: And I don't know how familiar you are with Finland, but we are so we are a small country of 5 5 million inhabitants.
Pia Puolakka: and about 3
Pia Puolakka: 1,000 prisoners.
Pia Puolakka: and a little bit more in, in probation, 3,500 per day, maybe.
Pia Puolakka: and
Pia Puolakka: staff in prisons and probations altogether is about
Pia Puolakka: 2,700.
Pia Puolakka: We have 28 prisons and 12
Pia Puolakka: probation offices.
Pia Puolakka: and
Pia Puolakka: our policy, I think, is very much about the Nordic Nordic principles of of criminal policy.
Pia Puolakka: and
Pia Puolakka: the main task is to prevent recidivism. So we aim that our clients would not return to a prison or a probation office.
Pia Puolakka: Our specialty is so called, gradual release, so
Pia Puolakka: imprisonment is a process from a more closed prison unit to more open enforcement.
Pia Puolakka: We try to put sentences served in as open conditions as possible.
Pia Puolakka: and in the core of Nordic criminal policy is a so-called normality principle. So it's important for us that prison environment should correspond as much as possible
Pia Puolakka: to conditions in normal society without, of course, risking the security in prisons.
Pia Puolakka: and this also has to do with the so called import model. So we try to bring the normal services of the society into prisons.
Pia Puolakka: And this is where digitalization is also important in Finnish presence, that via digital means
Pia Puolakka: prisoners. Also enclosed prison units
Pia Puolakka: would be able to use the outside civil services of the society.
Pia Puolakka: the same services as other any other citizen.
Pia Puolakka: So this is equality.
Pia Puolakka: and this is normality.
Pia Puolakka: And this is where digital is. Jason can greatly help.
Pia Puolakka: And we also call it the digital rehabilitation, because prisoners can use the outside services, healthcare, social services.
Pia Puolakka: rehabilitative services, and we have a very strong tradition in Finland to use Ngos
Pia Puolakka: as our partners
Pia Puolakka: in rehabilitating prisoners.
Pia Puolakka: We have quite low prisoner rate compared to European average.
Pia Puolakka: and what is also good is that we have exceptionally low amount of underaged and juveniles in prisons.
Pia Puolakka: and we also have compared to other European jurisdictions. We have quite short prison terms
Pia Puolakka: A great majority of of prisoners are in prison for less than 6 months, and a significant part is there less than 3 months.
Pia Puolakka: and we also have a so called individual sentence planning process for every prisoner. So prisoners, risks, and needs
Pia Puolakka: assist in the beginning of the sentence, and based on those analysis, we try to provide the suitable services
Pia Puolakka: for everyone.
Pia Puolakka: I think we have a quite high amount of prisoners with substance abuse problems and mental health problems. I assume this is a global
Pia Puolakka: global fact everywhere.
Pia Puolakka: And
Pia Puolakka: lately, when when we started to build
Pia Puolakka: the first so-called smart prison in Finland. It was our new women's prison
Pia Puolakka: that we built in 2020.
Pia Puolakka: We then defined our prison concept again. And nowadays the prison concept states
Pia Puolakka: prison as a learning environment for a life without crime.
Pia Puolakka: And I think this is this is a very, very good, very good concept.
Pia Puolakka: And also the digital services provided in those in the 3 smart prisms we have at the moment.
Pia Puolakka: The digital services also support the idea that
Pia Puolakka: it's a learning environment, a digital learning environment. Also.
Pia Puolakka: in the process of defining the new present concept, we used a so called service design model. So we actually categorized all our rehabilitative services
Pia Puolakka: in 7 different rehabilitative themes.
Pia Puolakka: So there's
Pia Puolakka: to state very, very shortly, then their substance abuse rehab is one team
Pia Puolakka: criminal thinking and
Pia Puolakka: is part of the psychosocial rehabilitation criminal thinking programs intended to to decrease criminal thinking and behavior change
Pia Puolakka: programs
Pia Puolakka: social and everyday life skills.
Pia Puolakka: part of which are also digital skills.
Pia Puolakka: education and vocational skills, health and wellbeing
Pia Puolakka: social relations, family family relations and parenting.
Pia Puolakka: and then social services intended to reintegrate back to the society.
Pia Puolakka: Among the rehabilitative activities we have a lot of program work, both individual and group work
Pia Puolakka: most of them based on the cognitive behavioral model motivational interviewing.
Pia Puolakka: And we have special programs for substance abuse, rehab behavior management. And then some crime specific programs, for, for example, violent and sexual offenders. And then also women specific programs.
Pia Puolakka: And then our speciality is this digital rehabilitation. So at the moment we provide the so called smart prison model in in 3 of our prisons.
Pia Puolakka: which means that in these 3 prisons we have a personal cell device for every prisoner
Pia Puolakka: with a special software
Pia Puolakka: for communication and managing affairs inside prison, and then also to limited extent interactions with the outside world and the services
Pia Puolakka: they're but based, or via video calls.
Pia Puolakka: including healthcare education
Pia Puolakka: and our other cooperative partners providing their services.
Pia Puolakka: And we think this supports the normality principle. So the possibility to use the same services as other citizens.
Pia Puolakka: And we consider this to improve prisoners rights, and also rehabilitative outcomes.
Pia Puolakka: And we also use in some prisons, virtual reality programs for rehabilitation.
Pia Puolakka: and then also training artificial intelligence as present labor, which, sounds quite exotic, but is actually very simple.
Pia Puolakka: Simple job. If you wanna hear about it more, I can tell. And then we have these AI projects. Regarding our often the management system. So we could use AI to automate and fasten certain of our assessment processes regarding offenders
Pia Puolakka: about our staff. As I said, we have about 2,700 staff members, prison officers, prison officials.
Pia Puolakka: senior prison officers, instructors, work supervisors.
Pia Puolakka: and also social workers, psychologists, study counselors, prison chaplains, teachers, lawyers, etc. And we also have a specific training institute for prison officers
Pia Puolakka: and regarding our stuff. I think it's important. That's all stuff is required to engage in rehabilitative work, besides safety and surveillance.
Pia Puolakka: and all staff has been trained for motivational practices.
Pia Puolakka: And yes, in Finland we are also very aware that prisons are a high risk and high stress environment for both prisoners and staff
Pia Puolakka: and for staff. There's a risk for secondary traumatization.
Pia Puolakka: because staff has to
Pia Puolakka: interact with very traumatized prison population
Pia Puolakka: that have mental health and substance abuse problems.
Pia Puolakka: and sometimes in that in the, in, the, in this particular occupation, it's a risk also for staff
Pia Puolakka: to develop problems like this.
Pia Puolakka: So the priority should be to ensure occupational safety staff wellbeing.
Pia Puolakka: support staff resilience.
Pia Puolakka: And I think ideally, our staff
Pia Puolakka: should be able to model, normal, healthy behavior and relationships
Pia Puolakka: in an abnormal environment like prison and the prisoners subculture.
Pia Puolakka: And of course this is a big challenge.
Pia Puolakka: and our staff is doing very, very valuable work when they are trying to to influence influence
Pia Puolakka: prison culture and and provide rehabilitation despite the sub.
Pia Puolakka: Despite the circumstances.
Pia Puolakka: And I think global challenges in presence at the moment. There are 2
Pia Puolakka: overcrowding
Pia Puolakka: and staff turnover, because
Pia Puolakka: the work is so challenging.
Pia Puolakka: And I think digitalization could support manage these challenges
Pia Puolakka: so that we could rely more on the services of the Normal society already during incarceration.
Pia Puolakka: and maybe make staff work flows a bit faster, smoother.
Pia Puolakka: maybe less need for prison transfers, etc.
Pia Puolakka: And I think, the so called trauma informed, and trauma, sensitive practices and approaches would be important as well as restorative approach when interacting with prisoners.
Pia Puolakka: These approaches are proven to support also staff wellbeing, not only prisoners wellbeing.
Pia Puolakka: so I think this was to show the introduct introduction at this point.
Pia Puolakka: And let's continue discussing
Pia Puolakka: Joanna. You can maybe put your microphone on.
Joanna Clarke: Turn my microphone off, because otherwise I'll be so tempted to be asking you questions all the way through, because it's absolutely fascinating, and it feels like worlds away from what we're currently experiencing in England and Wales particularly, you know, where
Joanna Clarke: people are being released from prison early because there are no spaces. They're being held in police cells. It feels so chaotic. And the way you describe what's happening in Finland feels so calm and measured and thought through. Obviously, I'm I'm not here to get political. It's and that would be very easy to do. But I think obviously one of one of the advantages in the finish system is that it's much smaller.
Joanna Clarke: And when I was looking at the numbers and thinking, Well, if you've got 3,000 prisoners in 28 prisons.
Joanna Clarke: then the prisons are small.
Joanna Clarke: and that.
Pia Puolakka: Yes.
Joanna Clarke: That gets me thinking about relationships and how important those relationships are between staff and prisoners.
Joanna Clarke: And also has me thinking about, how do you use digitalization and the building of those rehabilitative relationships.
Joanna Clarke: And then I heard you talking about AI taking over some of the prison labour. And I thought that was fascinating. I'd love to hear more about how that works. I know we have one or 2 of our prisons have got what might be considered
Joanna Clarke: smart access in that prisoners can relate to and communicate with the outside world through
Joanna Clarke: through methods in their cells. I don't know very much about it, but I do know there was some research done by the University of York regarding the impact of that. But it was so basic, I think, compared with what you're describing, and it was just looking, you know. They can order their own canteen food from their cell rather than have to put in an application to a member of prison staff. So and it's really interesting when I hear myself say that I'm then also thinking, is there a risk that digitalisation could break down those relationships because
Joanna Clarke: prisoners become very self sufficient. They're able to do lots of things for themselves, which I think is fantastic. But they're also
Joanna Clarke: is. I I guess that relationship between staff and prisoners comes from those necessary interactions that digitalisation might remove. So my head is absolutely spinning. And I don't know if you want to pick up on any particular thing that I've just said, because I've got a million more questions as well.
Pia Puolakka: Yes.
Joanna Clarke: Is there anything in particular? Yeah.
Pia Puolakka: Yeah, the I, I think
Pia Puolakka: we are still in the beginning of digitalization process here in Finland. But luckily, yeah, out of the 28. We ha! We already have the in cell devices in 3. Then, of course, we have open presence.
Pia Puolakka: and in open prisons. Prisoners can already use their own devices and go to work or study outside of prison. So maybe their in cell devices are not so necessary anymore.
Pia Puolakka: But
Pia Puolakka: I think this risk of what happens to the interaction is is good to be aware of. And when we planned the smart prison model, the idea was that we actually could increase
Pia Puolakka: interactions by providing also the digital means and diversify it.
Pia Puolakka: And and I hope this is what has happened. And then, of course, if if we face a situation
Pia Puolakka: where there's not enough staff, at least there's also possibility to use the services from outside prison
Pia Puolakka: to support the difficult situation with the resources, which is not the case in every unit.
Pia Puolakka: but
Pia Puolakka: bringing something additional in this way, and also relying more on the outside services actually help with the reintegration. And
Pia Puolakka: during the imprisonment. I think prisoners should learn to be a little bit more independent in taking care of their own things, because
Pia Puolakka: okay, maybe not in yet in prison. But when you go outside
Pia Puolakka: you have to be able to take care of your own things. And of course, this is what many prisoners are not very good at. So their their skills are not very enhanced, their social skills digital skills.
Pia Puolakka: And they are in many ways marginalized, also digitally margin marginalized.
Pia Puolakka: But in a modern society, if you don't have enough skills digital skills to take care of your daily matters. Everything depends in the society
Pia Puolakka: to some extent on digital digitalization. If you want to study something over somewhere, you need the skill. If you want to take care of your applications. And your
Pia Puolakka: social affairs,
Pia Puolakka: And and even Banks are in in in a net bank.
Pia Puolakka: mostly at the moment. So there are. There are many reasons why why this can support reintegration actually, and not put you more away from
Pia Puolakka: from human contacts, or or participation in society.
Joanna Clarke: It's it listening to you talk and just thinking back. When I started the prison service in 1990, there were men who were in prison when we changed to decimalisation. So when they left prison, they didn't even know what money looked like, and there was no way of them integrating into their local communities or societies to be prepared for that. So they were left completely unprepared
Joanna Clarke: for life outside, as you say. So that was something that was just going through my mind as you were talking, and I remember discussions with life sentence prisoners who were who got parole and said they were absolutely terrified because they were so unprepared, although the thing that struck me, and obviously this wouldn't be for your longer term prisoners. But your prison sentences are quite short. And I know that the digital world does change very rapidly. But you'd hope in sort of 6 months or so people wouldn't get too left behind
Joanna Clarke: digitally or with technology. But the fact that they are encouraged to keep on top of that is amazing. Do you have any prisons for older prisoners? Because one of the things a pet thing for me, and it's not really to do with criminal justice. But we've got a completely disenfranchised generation.
Joanna Clarke: and it must be the same the world over in the Western world, anyway, who don't know how to use computers don't know how to use a smartphone
Joanna Clarke: would be terrified to be on a call like this. And I thinking I have a mother in her eighties, and she can't go near a computer. So she's completely disenfranchised because she can't do her own banking. And that was one thing that you mentioned. So I'm thinking about your older prisoners, and whether or not the smart
Joanna Clarke: technology is being used to support them, too. I've got loads of other questions as well, Pierre, I could go everywhere with. This is so interesting.
Pia Puolakka: Yes, we did some research with an Ngo. And we found out that
Pia Puolakka: old digitally means already somebody in their thirties which.
Joanna Clarke: Ow.
Pia Puolakka: Rather young, but in the prison pro population the line goes somewhere. They're like 30, 35. So people younger than that they are. They were already born into a digital society with social media, etc. So so the difference is already there
Pia Puolakka: which might sound
Pia Puolakka: a a bit surprising, but the considering that most of the prisoners haven't been part of a very steady working life or vocational life, or haven't
Pia Puolakka: educated themselves further, they haven't been involved with the processes that we are familiar, who have studied and and went to working life, and and so on.
Pia Puolakka: So they haven't been trained too many skills that we found
Pia Puolakka: like self evident. So maybe that's why the the divide is already somewhere there in the thirties.
Pia Puolakka: in prison population.
Joanna Clarke: Well, probably.
Pia Puolakka: Learning digital skills.
Joanna Clarke: As I say, probably in the other populations, as well as I count myself a little bit behind the times. But that yeah, so so
Joanna Clarke: interesting to think about how this normality principle of the Finnish prisons.
Joanna Clarke: and especially obviously around digitalisation.
Joanna Clarke: can.
Joanna Clarke: you know, hopefully prevent reoffending. So one of the things I'd love to touch on is, it may be a bit earlier a bit soon. But do you have any
Joanna Clarke: data around
Joanna Clarke: recidivism and the role of digitalisation in reducing recidivism.
Pia Puolakka: It's difficult to study yet.
Pia Puolakka: because our history is quite short. The first smart prison opened in 2021 but at least we have a qualitative feedback, qualitative studies where prisoners opinion is that when the digital services came
Pia Puolakka: they at least have more possibilities to use different services for their own needs, so they are not restricted to the services that are provided inside prison by prison
Pia Puolakka: staff only, but they can.
Pia Puolakka: There's more variety. They can use the other services to. And I think this definitely helps with rehabilitation
Pia Puolakka: and also helps prison staff because they can also rely on resources more
Pia Puolakka: and working collaboration. So I think, one of the most important things has been that there's enhanced collaboration with the outside partners.
Pia Puolakka: and we have to remember that there was a covid period in between our digitalization process. So
Pia Puolakka: when the project started in 2018 in 2020
Pia Puolakka: started covid.
Pia Puolakka: So suddenly, this digitalization became a necessity.
Pia Puolakka: It wasn't anymore that this is something additional, interesting. And and do we need it? But it became evident that
Pia Puolakka: yes, we need it. And definitely.
Pia Puolakka: even though it was a very hard period.
Pia Puolakka: the Covid time, I think, for digitalization project it. It was a kind of a blessing. Also that we could show the difference. We could show the impact and the benefits.
Pia Puolakka: And now, living the post covid
Pia Puolakka: time. There's no decrease in digital services more like increase all the time. So I think Covid also changed a lot.
Pia Puolakka: How we how we practice rehabilitation in everywhere, in in schools, in hospitals, in social care, in prisons, everywhere.
John Scott: Have I.
Joanna Clarke: Hello again, John. So
Joanna Clarke: so I have another question which might be slightly controversial. I'm not sure you talked. I want to talk about staff as well, if that's possible. But you you talked a bit about, you know the May some of the big problems around mental health in prisons, and I think that's same the world over. And I don't think we really yet understand the impact of digitalisation on our psychological wellbeing.
Joanna Clarke: I think it would be naive for us to think that the rapid advances in technology
Joanna Clarke: don't impact on our ability to thrive in a forever changingly changing, fast paced world. And I think that makes a very strong argument for ensuring prisoners keep up, because it would be horrible to come out and
Joanna Clarke: not be able to jump on that conveyor belt, if you like, because you don't have the skills to do it. But I but there are also, you know, there's some very positive uses of
Joanna Clarke: technology in the support of mental health as well. And I just wonder, before we talk about staff a bit, what your view is about the role of technology and digitalisation and mental health as a from a psychological perspective.
Pia Puolakka: I think there's importance. And we can call it telehealth. Maybe that's that's the term that is, lot used a lot. And I also outside prison, we can see that the development is very fast, also in healthcare.
Joanna Clarke: Yeah.
Pia Puolakka: So, at least in prisons. What we see is that again, prisoners are not restricted to the services of the particular prison.
Pia Puolakka: but prison staff and prisoners can contact online special services from another unit
Pia Puolakka: from our prison prisoner hospital and from the special units we have for psychiatric care prisoners.
Pia Puolakka: So this transferring prisoners to another unit is not always necessary, because we can now also consult online. And of course, also, we can consult civil services.
Pia Puolakka: And of course. There!
Pia Puolakka: there! There's a difference whether the contact in healthcare or psychopath therapy is face to face or online. But I think there have been many studies that may be contrary to what we believe not necessarily do the clients feel that the face to face contact would be always
Pia Puolakka: best or better than online contact. For some, the online contact might be easier there's lower threshold for contacting specialist
Pia Puolakka: online than than going to meet him or her in person. And and maybe there's sometimes also it can stay more anonymous
Pia Puolakka: and and and you can control the contact as a client a little bit more when it's when it's up to you to take the online contact, then
Pia Puolakka: and see see how you want to use it or not. Use it.
Joanna Clarke: Hmm, yeah, because.
Pia Puolakka: So there are many sides. Yeah.
Joanna Clarke: Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And we've got John back. So he he might have something to say. I should stop.
John Scott: Right. Well, first of all, can you hear me? Okay.
John Scott: fine. I'm about 2 kilometers up the road in my daughter's house.
John Scott: and my lovely, and my lovely son-in-law
John Scott: has fixed me up on his Internet.
John Scott: I heard every word that the 2 of you were saying, and I can can't tell you how useful it was to you. Clearly, the the Internet is completely down in my area of town. We'll we'll claim that it was a thunderbolt. But I'm so sorry to to be in and out, but it's it's lovely to be able to give you both.
John Scott: But the problem, of course is.
John Scott: I haven't a clue what you've been talking about.
John Scott: So I'm gonna have to listen back to this recording to catch up what? What I thought I would do is as well as apologizing to you and any subsequent audience that we have. Is to to ask what
John Scott: Particular use of groups that have in prisons have been are hot at the moment. Because
John Scott: particularly when I was responsible for sex and violence offenders. There were a great use of group work for sex sex offenders.
John Scott: And I'm wondering whether the investment in group work is regarded as as valuable and cost effective. Now, that was, that would have been a question that I would have wanted to put to you both.
Joanna Clarke: I'd be interested to see what pier.
Joanna Clarke: how peer responds, particularly in the setting of digitalisation.
Pia Puolakka: Yeah, yeah.
Pia Puolakka: yeah, we have. We have a lot of program work in in Finnish presence
Pia Puolakka: and both individual work and group work. I think sometimes the highest risk of vendors might benefit from individual work also, because they might have
Pia Puolakka: an influence on others in a group work setting, but this is mostly the case with very psychopathic offenders, for example.
Pia Puolakka: But yes, we have a lot of rehabilitational programs motivational programs, substance abuse rehabilitation programs
Pia Puolakka: anger and violent behavior management programs. And then crime specific programs, for example, for violent offenders
Pia Puolakka: and sexual offenders. And then also women specific programs.
Pia Puolakka: And
Pia Puolakka: I think. We see a value in them as you know. Sometimes. People always ask. Well, have you studied the recidivism rates, etc, etc. And sometimes it's quite hard to find evidence based
Pia Puolakka: amounts of information regarding this.
Pia Puolakka: But we believe in program work. And and we oriented from the operative management unit. For example, from my team, I have, 2 specialists
Pia Puolakka: who are responsible for helping units to organize
Pia Puolakka: and manage program work. So
Pia Puolakka: group work also.
Pia Puolakka: And we can also use to some extent, digital digital means for program work.
Pia Puolakka: If, for example, in in some units, there's no staff who has training for a specific program. Maybe we can use via video calls staff from member from another unit who has the specific training and can take an individual
Pia Puolakka: to work, work, work with him or her online.
Pia Puolakka: And then also some of our Ngo Ngos, as as partners of rehabilitation, provide online platforms
Pia Puolakka: where prisoners can individually take program like exercises and and work work online. And then, besides the platform, they can use video calls with A, with a
Pia Puolakka: with a member from the Ngo.
Pia Puolakka: So these are the possibilities we we have at the moment.
Pia Puolakka: And, for example, during Covid it was
Pia Puolakka: we became quite familiar to use the video call connections for for program work, too.
Pia Puolakka: But we could still develop it further in the smart prisons we already had it have a technical possibility to form
Pia Puolakka: inside prison online groups. But I think
Pia Puolakka: the best solution would be that any individual prisoner from any unit could join an online national group
Pia Puolakka: that so that prisoners from different units could join the same program at the same time online and share their their experiences. But there's there's a way to develop towards that direction, I think. And this could also save resources and solve many problems that we have in some units regarding program work.
Pia Puolakka: Sometimes we don't find enough prisoners in a small unit to form a group.
Pia Puolakka: Or there are other factors. Motivational factors or prisoners don't want to be in the same group with particular
Pia Puolakka: other prisoners and security questions.
Pia Puolakka: all the kind of questions that could be avoided in an online group work.
Pia Puolakka: Maybe easier. Yeah.
John Scott: It would be. It would be good to explore different success. Different success factors. So what works for digital and what works for face to face. What do you think of the different success factors.
Pia Puolakka: Yes.
Pia Puolakka: Well, first of all, building connection and trust in any kind of work is the number one thing. So sometimes I've recommended myself that the first meeting should be face to face, so that you can build the contact and motivate.
Pia Puolakka: And then, if it seems that it starts to function. Maybe you can then also continue online.
Pia Puolakka: But definitely, there's there's different views of what are the benefits and what are the risks of choosing between face to face and then online
Pia Puolakka: rehabilitation. Yeah.
Pia Puolakka: okay.
Joanna Clarke: So I've just got a message through from somebody who's listening about trauma informed work. So I'll try and respond to that in just a moment, but
Joanna Clarke: I was also thinking you touched in your introduction on virtual reality the use of virtual reality. And I years ago remember thinking, when I first heard about it. How amazing that would be
Joanna Clarke: to really allow offenders to test out their new found skills as a result of group work and programs. You know their impulse, control, their consequential thinking, to really try out in a safe environment what would happen if they made different choices at different times, and I also think that would have an incredibly important part to play in recruitment of staff as well. That Staff could actually experience
Joanna Clarke: virtually being in a prison.
Joanna Clarke: experiencing. I don't know that it's like this in Finland, and from the way you've described it, I now have a very idyllic view of what Finnish prisons are like. But I remember walking into Brixton for the first time, having worked in a high security prison for years, and then being literally mobbed by about 80 prisoners who were all out of their cells. It was unlocked association time. There were about 3 staff. It smelt really strange. It was such an oddic
Joanna Clarke: experience, and I'm thinking about the use of virtual reality to support both prisoners and staff in their training, if you like, before we use that word broadly, and what you think about that, and how we might do it. I don't know how easy it be, but I think it'd be fascinating.
Pia Puolakka: Yes, definitely skills, training and exposure to real life. Circumstances
Pia Puolakka: in in a virtual environment would be helpful. And I know that in some European countries they are already using virtual reality in training stuff.
Joanna Clarke: 'kay.
Pia Puolakka: That works in security.
Pia Puolakka: This is this is what I've understood. In Finland we have some pilots with prisoners only, but the yes, there are programs to, for example, train social anxiety management, which is very common in prisoners. And then, just the kind of virtual reality environments that are more for relaxation, mood, alteration.
Pia Puolakka: I heard that some of these, a nature like a virtual environments, are used for for prisoners who have withdrawal symptoms, so it might alleviate this kind of problems. Besides social anxiety and and and things like this, we also have one
Pia Puolakka: more
Pia Puolakka: more profound research project in collaboration with the healthcare services for prisoners which separate unit, but responsible for prisoners. Healthcare in Finland.
Pia Puolakka: And they have a project that uses virtual reality, assisted psychotherapy with young offenders.
Pia Puolakka: with the idea of training young prisoners to behave
Pia Puolakka: in a calm way in in situations that provoke aggression.
Pia Puolakka: and also to increase their understanding of the other party to train empathy skills. This is very interesting
Pia Puolakka: project. And I would see that this kind of skills training programs for prisoners could be very interesting to to use more also.
Joanna Clarke: Which actually, I think, quite nicely, leads on to the question that I got in the message which is about trauma informed work, particularly with prisoners, although perhaps also with staff, and the the fact that so many prisoners
Joanna Clarke: I would probably actually say all prisoners will have a trauma.
Joanna Clarke: a trauma past I have yet to. I mean even coming into prison is a trauma in itself, and I remember a colleague of mine doing her masters thesis on the experience of post traumatic stress
Joanna Clarke: having murdered somebody, and the trauma that that offender experienced, because, as a result of his own offending. So it's almost like self induced trauma. But so the question was that, given that so many offenders have a trauma background.
Joanna Clarke: how do we make sure that we can?
Joanna Clarke: We can accommodate that. And I remember in my early days in group work in the prison service.
Joanna Clarke: given that a large percentage of offenders who were on the sex offender treatment program would disclose abuse. I suspect one or 2 of them
Joanna Clarke: tried to use that as a an excuse when it hadn't actually happened, but I think that was really rare. I think probably lots of them who did disclose abuse had been abused, and we were absolutely instructed that we don't go there. We don't talk about the Zone experience at all.
Joanna Clarke: I look back now, and I'm slightly horrified that we
Joanna Clarke: weren't allowed even to address
Joanna Clarke: an individual's experience of trauma and its relationship to their offending and related to that, of course, all the developments in neuroscience and our understanding of the impact it has on brain development and the function of the amygdala and storage of memories. So it, in
Joanna Clarke: in my view, if we picked up
Joanna Clarke: people early as children and most teachers would reliably be able to predict who is likely to end up
Joanna Clarke: in the criminal justice system. If we could pick those youngsters up early, we would probably be much better off in terms of not having to address their trauma in prisons. But I just wonder what your view is, peer.
Pia Puolakka: Yes, I I I think the same way. I I think the majority has some some kind of trauma background, and the crime itself can be traumatic also for the offender, not only the victim, but for the offender and and and coming to prison kind of then can definitely also be very traumatic. The prison environment is anyway very, very hard, and and of course, as prison stuff, we can
Pia Puolakka: try to make it better, and and and and alleviate the atmosphere. But anyway, prisoners will form their own subculture, and it's limited what we can do
Pia Puolakka: to prevent
Pia Puolakka: what what kind of damage might be done there, too. But definitely, prisoners have a high amount of trauma background, and I think this is scientifically proven in many of the research regarding trauma informed and trauma sensitive practice.
Pia Puolakka: I think, of course, if you want to go through the traumatic experiences that the offender has, you must have adequate
Pia Puolakka: education and training to do that, because otherwise it can damage more. But at least prison psychologists, psychotherapist chaplains.
Pia Puolakka: we should be able to do it, because definitely, trauma is tied to the offending behavior and substance abuse behavior even more. Then, if we think about the the prison prison officer stuff the majority
Pia Puolakka: who is maybe not supposed to go into detail, to start to go through the trauma, but they also should be at least informed and aware that there how the trauma affects a new individual. If a prisoner behaves in a in a certain way, it can be a trauma response. If a prisoner is being difficult, aggressive, etc.
Pia Puolakka: This can be also trauma based.
Pia Puolakka: So at least for prison officers. It's important to be aware of
Pia Puolakka: how, how, what are the symptoms of trauma? How? How you can see that the particular person is probably traumatized. How can you see it from his or her behavior, and how you're being trauma sensitive, taking into account
Pia Puolakka: that probably this prisoner with a high trauma background is a very sensitive to feelings of shame and guilt.
Pia Puolakka: even if he or she doesn't show it, and how you can align your work
Pia Puolakka: and the procedures you have to do
Pia Puolakka: regarding that you are, you are interacting with a traumatized person.
Joanna Clarke: I do. You know, it's so interesting because we recently, as part of my work, have trained a whole cohort about 120 new prison staff, who are working with very young offenders, and one of my passions is
Joanna Clarke: preparing staff for the job that they're going to be doing. And we, we would refer to working in prisons as a critical occupation. So we know that it's a role
Joanna Clarke: where the experience of it and it's a critical impact on your psychological wellbeing.
Joanna Clarke: And yet we don't prepare staff for that. So, Staff, and perhaps one of the reasons for such high turnover amongst staff is, they are so unprepared for what they're going to face.
Pia Puolakka: Yeah.
Joanna Clarke: So we developed a training. It's just a day. It's called trauma preparedness. And it's paired with the training and resilience skills. And we trained 120 staff in trauma preparedness, and the lovely findings were that it reduced sickness, absence, and improved retention. But one of the very unexpected findings. The staff who had been trained in these versus staff, who hadn't.
Joanna Clarke: were significantly more likely to get involved in incidents with the offenders, but far less likely to get assaulted, and
Joanna Clarke: I think that the interesting thing there is that even though the staff were being trained in trauma awareness for themselves and about what to expect. If they experience something traumatic and and the kind of responses they might have, and what's normal, and when to seek advice and so on.
Joanna Clarke: There is undoubtedly they transferred that to the youngsters, and I would say, in the training.
Joanna Clarke: every child in there is going to be traumatised, Restart the children, and they're incarcerated. So, although we're doing this training for you, it obviously applies to the youngsters as well. So just bear that in mind, and that was it didn't provide any other discussion about the children they were looking after, but I thought that finding was fascinating, and I think if we look after our staff well, and we train them and equip them in the skills they need, especially around trauma, to look after themselves
Joanna Clarke: that transfers to their ability to look after people in their care as well. So
Joanna Clarke: yeah.
Pia Puolakka: Guests.
Joanna Clarke: It was a really interesting and very unexpected finding, so we were delighted. I'm very conscious of time, John. I will have to listen to Pierre forever. It's fascinating.
John Scott: Well, in a way, we're onto really important material about the skills and
John Scott: characteristics of the staff that you need to engage
John Scott: with
John Scott: people in prisons who who've got issues of their own. And I'm I'm wondering whether there are specific skill sets that you need
John Scott: to be sensitive to run groups or to pick up on trauma based issues? Or do you think every type of prison
John Scott: officer or prison worker can do it?
Joanna Clarke: I don't. And I think but what's really interesting, and this from my own research into thriving at work, are the very skills that allow staff to be sensitive are also the ones that probably make them more vulnerable.
John Scott: Hmm! Do you have to do things to avoid burnout? Do you think.
Joanna Clarke: Yes, but I think some of that falls to the organisation, and some of it falls to the individuals concerned. We need to absolutely know how to look after ourselves.
Joanna Clarke: And that would require. I mean, I could talk about this, as you know, for ever, John, and I'm really conscious not to get into it in too much detail at this time in the evening, and I know we're drawing to a close. But
Joanna Clarke: I think the organisation has a responsibility to take care of its staff to train its staff properly. Competence is a key component of this, and I see P. And not doing. I'm sure you agree that we staff need to be prepared for what they're going to face. They need to
Joanna Clarke: when they have those characteristics of compassion and empathy and perspective taking, which is absolutely what we require in a rehabilitative setting, they also need to understand that they're risky, and that in terms of feeling overwhelmed and burnt out by their role, and therefore particular and specific interventions need to be in place to make sure they they can protect themselves from overload.
John Scott: We've had a specific question about whether prison probation staff training is sufficient to work with prisoners with with with
John Scott: different backgrounds, you think?
John Scott: Do you think that's the case? Here.
Pia Puolakka: So the question was that, is the training of prison officers enough efficient to face different backgrounds? Yeah.
Pia Puolakka: Well, at least in Finland. When we train prison officers. We. We ask the question before the training that what? What is your motivation to? Apply for this kind of training. Why do you want to be a prison officer? I think that's an important question to to ask yourself before you go in into this kind of training.
Pia Puolakka: And then, of course,
Pia Puolakka: people with different backgrounds backgrounds can can definitely be suitable for prison work. But I would say that skills like, empathy good social skills good resilience
Pia Puolakka: that your own men that you are your yourself. You are
Pia Puolakka: balanced psychologically. Your mental health bal is balanced.
Pia Puolakka: These kind of things are important.
Pia Puolakka: and also that you know your barriers. I think this is also important when working with traumatized people, that even though, if you're empathetic.
Pia Puolakka: you have to be able to keep. Keep your
Pia Puolakka: keep yourself not mixing your own own things with the problems that the prisoner brings, if you understand what I mean, and and also be aware yourself that if you need help to go through the things that you experience in your work.
Pia Puolakka: you you should seek for help, and of course, and, as Joanne said, the organization should also support our staff
Pia Puolakka: by providing help and understanding in these kind of situations
Pia Puolakka: and.
John Scott: And what what does your what does your organization do to help avoid burnout.
Pia Puolakka: we have. We. We are aware that this is quite, quite common in, in high, in high risk and high stress environments.
Pia Puolakka: So so there are occupational healthcare services provided in our agency.
Pia Puolakka: And there's also possibility, if if crisis situations happen, that you can get some kind of a help
Pia Puolakka: with debriefing and going through what happened.
Pia Puolakka: And I think peer support is also important peer support between prison officers
Pia Puolakka: and and and the staff, and I think
Pia Puolakka: we we should still raise the awareness of of how how
Pia Puolakka: traumatized the individuals can affect us also.
Pia Puolakka: And and this would be something that we should do even more. I think so. It's an important topic in the future, too.
John Scott: Yes, we'll we'll certainly return to that, I think in in podcast. To come. I'm very conscious that there's a drip, drip, drip effect that can weigh you down. But also you can be hit by a wave, a, a a crisis and that can also be very, very difficult to handle.
Joanna Clarke: To just respond to that very quickly.
John Scott: Does anyone just do this.
Joanna Clarke: A staff sufficiently trained. And I'd say, no. They're trained to do the procedural policy process aspects of the role and the security aspects of the role. They're probably trained very well to do that. Most staff love their control and restraint training. But I don't think Staff are properly prepared to take care of themselves. And I think organizationally, we need many more preventative strategies for staff which include
Joanna Clarke: the recruitment. Questions are really important. The training and competence, the requirement for levels of autonomy, the meaningfulness of the role.
Joanna Clarke: the way the environment works to support staff. All of these things need addressing to prevent burnout as well. There is an individual responsibility. I absolutely feel that's very important, because I think it's incredibly disempowering for people if they believe that they are burnt out because of what's done unto them, without feeling they have any part in being able to
Joanna Clarke: prevent it, seek support when they need it, take action to defend to protect themselves. I mean, we talk about the piece of research by Devil's Patton and John Bolante on what's called a stress shield.
Joanna Clarke: Obviously you've got to maintain your shield. But it's a really helpful metaphor, I think, to think about. How do you prevent that drip, drip, drip, you know. And how do you maintain your shield? What are the things that you do that prevent you becoming unwell? Not. What do we do and to respond when people have become unwell, because that's too late. You know, we need to prevent it happening. In the first place.
John Scott: That's very powerful. I'm I'm going to look to you both, really, just to see if you've got any reflections. About after our
John Scott: time together. Let's start with you, Pia. Is there anything you'd like to say that would capture our discussion?
Pia Puolakka: Yeah, I think this is very important discussion that we are responsible for both prisoners and staff's wellbeing and and mental health in, in, in settings like prison is. And, as I said earlier, I think training staff for the trauma informed, and trauma sensitive and also restorative. Approach
Pia Puolakka: also helps staff to stay balanced
Pia Puolakka: themselves, and increases their wellbeing too. And I think this is research, too.
Pia Puolakka: and
Pia Puolakka: and also what the what Joanna said, that you can never be too much prepared for for such an environment as prison is, and I think the word I use probably was barriers, but I meant boundaries, of course, that you have to learn your boundaries, and what's what's the appropriate distance between you, your work and the prisoner and the prisoners background. And this is something you probably only can learn
Pia Puolakka: while while learning it by doing it.
Pia Puolakka: So pre. The training for prison officers can help to some extent, and of course these issues should be addressed there.
Pia Puolakka: But then you, then the test is in the real environment, of course, and everything. We also discussed about the digitalization, I think, was very, very interesting, and and in the future I think there will be even a larger revolution regarding digitalization and artificial intelligence in prison. So
Pia Puolakka: maybe we cannot yet even predict how, in how many ways it can affect, how the work and interactions in the presence will be in the future.
Pia Puolakka: But I I hope for the best, because there's a lot of good things have been done, and and I think more will be done in the future.
John Scott: Great Joe. Reflections from you.
Joanna Clarke: I, it's really
Joanna Clarke: reawakened, and provoke more my interest in virtual reality.
Joanna Clarke: both in terms of preparing staff and supporting prisoners.
Joanna Clarke: and really testing out some of the skills that we teach and group work, and the whole aim of rehabilitation
Joanna Clarke: to help people think in a slightly different way, behave in a slightly different way. So I would love love to get involved in VR research in all aspects as well as our massive advancements in neuropsychology
Joanna Clarke: and understanding. You know the neurophysiology of trauma, of how to treat it, about how to work with prisoners and staff to minimise the risks to them of the whole prison experience that for me I'm I'm a bit on fire with that. Now. I want to go away and learn more.
John Scott: Well, both both of you sound very positive. I wonder if you've got a bit of advice?
John Scott: To our audience? Who are out there working in prisons in different settings. Do you have a a word of encouragement that you'd like to sign off with Pia.
Pia Puolakka: I would say that working is prison is a possibility to do very meaningful and influential work regarding
Pia Puolakka: the whole society. And of course, the individual lives that we face there.
Pia Puolakka: And I, I would encourage, encourage, to pursue that challenge.
Pia Puolakka: to work with those that are most damaged, and most need help in our society in many ways.
John Scott: Thank you. And and you, Joe.
Joanna Clarke: Where do you start? I think, for people working in prisons.
Joanna Clarke: Please understand that from the outside you are probably seen very differently from the way it feels. And I absolutely echo what Pier is saying about how valuable and important that work is.
Joanna Clarke: and therefore also the importance of ensuring that you're kind of psychologically fit for that work. Treat it like a physical fitness. Learn all the things you can about how to look after your mind in the same way that we essentially know how to look after our bodies.
Joanna Clarke: and it will give people longevity in that field we can draw on their
Joanna Clarke: experience, and one of the things that's really lacking at the moment in our prison system is experience, because so many of the experienced staff have left for various reasons. So the younger people, the younger staff coming through. Now we need you to stay there.
Joanna Clarke: because that's what will help stabilize our prison population and do the really meaningful rehab work. So
Joanna Clarke: you know, investigate psychological fitness. Get yourselves well for the long haul, because because our offenders, our incarcerated people, need you.
John Scott: Dean.
John Scott: So a big thank you to both our psychologist speakers today, Joe Clark. And yeah, we're lucky.
John Scott: We're recording another just psychology tomorrow. So if you're able to join us, that's great. We've got speakers from Europiz and the Czech Republic. So do join us for that. But I'd also want to invite you to Co. Come on the fourth of June. Because PR. Is leading it again. A webinar this time on artificial intelligence. Because the Council of Europe is launching
John Scott: standards relating to the use of artificial intelligence across the criminal justice system.
John Scott: And we've got a a big webinar taking place with speakers from around the world, and Pierre is one of those. So lots coming up. Thank you very much for attending today, for contributing, watching, listening this event will also be available as a podcast and a Youtube. So do encourage your colleagues to listen in and join the conversation for visiting I and Cj's website at Criminal Justice Network.
John Scott: Don't let
John Scott: so thank you for listening.
John Scott: Goodbye.
Pia Puolakka: Thank you. Goodbye.
Joanna Clarke: I.